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Shedding Light on Autocracy & the Abuse of Charismatic Leadership
In this important episode Soraya Afzali, an Afghan sociology and political science expert based at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, discusses the deep dangers of charismatic leadership when it is deployed by autocratic figures to mobilize fear, hatred, and anger around populist movements that ultimately seek to cement political power around dictators and their totalitarian regimes.
Humans are highly susceptible to rhetoric that impacts individual neuro-biochemistry in such a manner that when xenophobia and other “fear-factors” are mobilized and repeatedly stressed to be imminent (and often existential) threats, the cocktail effect of our physical hormones can behave much like addiction to narcotics and other stimulants. These powerful forces can be mobilized en-masse by charismatic authoritarian leaders, often leading to very tragic, violent, and horrific outcomes, as recent “necropolitics” examples in the 20th and early 21st centuries clearly demonstrate. Authoritarian leaders often appear as “saviors” initially (and astute psychologists will connect the dots between traumatic experiences, narcissism, and triggering/manipulating vulnerabilities in others who themselves have also had traumatic experiences… as most all of us have). Then, they systematically accrete power (very often within the context of otherwise reasonably well-functioning democracies), until finally they are virtually omnipotent dictators within the context of their nation-state regimes. Whether it’s the fascist rhetoric of Hitler and Mussolini a century ago, or the current populist rhetoric affecting democracies throughout the world, hatred- and fear-based charismatic political leadership is arguably the most dangerous and destabilizing force our species has encountered in modern times. Not only does this cynical form of charisma create real, existential threats to human safety and security (perhaps ironically, given that it so often points to contrived or exaggerated “existential threats” to mobilize susceptible segments of the population), it also severely undermines concerted regional, national, and global efforts to effectively mitigate other very real threats such as civil liberty erosion, human trafficking, slavery, arms and narcotics trade, oceanic pollution, climate destabilization, and ecological destruction.
If we are to most effectively respond as a human family to the myriad challenges and threats facing humanity (in a kind, loving, compassionate, inclusive, and democratic manner) then we must diminish the power of authoritarian charismatic leadership in our societies.
By shedding light on the tactics deployed by charismatic authoritarian leaders, Ms. Afzali helps us to understand the mechanisms used on vulnerable populations, such as: focusing on geographic territoriality (and real/fabricated/exaggerated “threats” thereto), appealing to superficial religious beliefs, constructing “enemies,” mobilizing racism and hatred toward specific subcultural groups, and generally appealing to the base human emotions associated with perceived separateness, danger, and fear in order to trigger “fight or flight” neuro-biochemical responses. Then, after evoking a sense of emotional danger, the totalitarian leader will often provide a “reframing” and a “plan to action” to respond to the perceived threat, almost always engendering a (false) sense of urgency and (also false) sense of agency among the vulnerable populations responding to such rhetoric, including fostering a (superficial yet) powerful sense of belonging and purpose.
Wow. This is serious, heavy, and dangerous stuff… and it is clearly important and pertinent to our current regional and global situations. Our entire human family is affected one way or another by charismatic authoritarian leaders, and the risks at present do not yet seem to be abating of their own accord.
Therefore, we are not only being called to better understand the mechanisms of populist authoritarianism, we must also learn to ascertain the (sometimes subtle) differences between that form of “leadership” and authentically beneficent (or at least humanistic) leadership that is grounded in humility, love, kindness, compassion, and respect for all people and all life.
Thank goodness we have the work of a leader like Soraya to help us untangle this massive, complicated human (all-too-human?) snarl of rhetorical, psychological, neurobiochemical, political, and emotional dimensions, and to become much better at, instead of tangling giant knots of pain and suffering, weaving more beautiful tapestries of understanding, stability, peace, joy, and harmony. Not only is the latter the better path for us to take, it is the only pragmatic path, in the final analysis, when it comes to successfully navigating the very complex systemic risks we all actually face together in these momentous times.
About Soraya Afzali
Soraya Afzali received her bachelor’s degree in Business Management at the American University of Afghanistan and her masters in International Relations from Central European University. Soraya has several years of experience in communication and has contributed to different research projects with international organizations as a consultant. She has contributed to the World Bank Group’s Education Management Information System in Collaboration with Ministry of Higher Education- and GIZ’s Monitoring, Evaluation and Communication (MEC) in collaboration with Ministry of Economics in Afghanistan. Ms. Soraya is passionate about promoting diversity and inclusion. For her MA thesis, she focused on mechanisms of inclusion in educational systems.
Within her volunteer work, she has volunteered for Solace for the Children, the American Councils, and co-founded Humans of Kabul in 2013 to tell stories of Afghan people. Throughout the years, Soraya has been part of different networks that focus on civil society empowerment as the likes of Open Society Foundation, Initiatives of Change- Caux Scholars Program, and Le Ciel Foundation. She is recipient of the US Embassy Scholarship and Open Society Leadership Award.
Resources & Related Episodes
https://nethate-itn.eu/researcher/afzali-sorayahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/soraya-afzali
Ep. 155 – John Rogers, Le Ciel Foundation Fellow, “The Renaissance Campaign”
Ep. 140 – Dr. James Gordon, MD, Founder, Center for Mind-Body Medicine
Ep. 127 – John Perkins, “Life Economy vs. Death Economy”
Ep. 109 – Dr. Robert Cloninger, MD, “Genetics & Psychology of Stewardship, Happiness, & Hope”
Ep. 88 – General Wesley Clark, “Democracy, Climate, Technology & Leadership”
Ep. 75 – Dr. Jandel Allen-Davis, MD, “Race, Riots, and Reflection: Healing Our Communities”
Ep. 71 – Karenna Gore, Director, Center for Earth Ethics
Ep. 51 – Jonathan Granoff, President, Global Security Institute
Ep. 50 – Dr. Anita Sanchez on Women’s Voices, Indigenous Wisdom & the Sacred Hoop of Life
Ep. 22 – Sahar Alsahlani on Interfaith & Greenfaith Action
Transcript
(Automatically generated transcript for search engine optimization and reference purposes – grammatical and spelling errors may exist.)
Welcome to the YonEarth Community Podcast. I’m your host, Aaron William Perry.
And today we have the opportunity to visit with an extraordinary scholar and cultural
expert, Soraya Afzali. Soraya, it is so good to visit with you. Thank you.
Thanks to you and thank you for giving me the opportunity to be on this podcast.
Yeah, it’s a real pleasure and I know we’re going to dive into some topics very
salient for our current global situation. You come from Afghanistan, you’re
currently working on a PhD based in Dublin, Ireland, and you are studying the role of charismatic
leadership as it relates to despotism, autocracy, the types of leaders emergent that are not
necessarily at all good for society, good for humanity, good for our world.
Yes, I’m a fourth year PhD student here at Trinity College Dublin. And as you mentioned,
my research focus is charisma and overall charismatic authority and as part of that charismatic
leadership. One of the main focus area, my focus area is to understand how charismatic authority
actually works, how it manifests itself in which kind of setting and as a recipient of this
authority. Ultimately, what should we be aware of? Okay, wonderful. I’m really excited to
dive into this with you. Obviously, so important for all of us. Soraya Afzali received her bachelor’s
degree in business management at the American University of Afghanistan at her masters in international
relations from Central European University. Soraya has several years of experience and communication
and has contributed to different research projects with international organizations as a consultant.
She has contributed to the World Bank Group’s education management information system in collaboration
with Ministry of Higher Education and GIZ monitoring evaluation and communication in collaboration
with Ministry of Economics in Afghanistan and GIZ is a German-based humanitarian organization.
Soraya is passionate about promoting diversity and inclusion. For her master’s thesis,
she focused on mechanisms of inclusion in educational systems. Within her volunteer work,
she has volunteered for solace for the children, the American councils, and co-founded Humans of
Kabul in 2013 to tell stories of Afghan people. Throughout the years, Soraya has been part of different
networks that focus on civil society empowerment, such as Open Society Foundation initiatives
of change in the co-scholars program and the Lucille Foundation, which of course,
Soraya is how we met. She is the recipient of the United States and Best
Embassy Scholarship and Open Society Leadership Award. And Soraya, you and I, we’ve had an
opportunity over the last few months to have a few really deep and lovely conversations about the
work that you’re doing, work that is taking on some very challenging and difficult topics.
And I’m so thrilled we have the opportunity to share your wisdom, your knowledge, and your insights
with our audience because it’s something you’re focused on, something that is so vitally important
to the fabric of the societies and the global society in which we’re all participants and we’re
all connected. And so, I guess, you know, to kick things off, let me just ask you,
why charisma, why a focus on charisma in your work and your research and how how did you come
to a focus on charisma and charismatic leadership? Thank you, Aaron, and thank you for such a
kind introduction. The answer to this question, I can do it in two parts or from two perspective.
One is personal and the other is rather theoretical and academic. And I will tackle the academic
one first. Charismatic authority is interesting because it can be both rational and it can be
irrational. It doesn’t have any framework to work with compared to other kinds of authority that
has been theorized by sociologists to name one of the prominent one, Max Weber, which are, for
example, bureaucratic authority or legal authority that deals with laws and policies and paperwork
and so on. But the charismatic authority does not rely on any of these. It’s almost like a fluid
type of authority that can exist within the bureaucracy, within the legal sphere, or it can
exist quite purely. And this is why it becomes interesting because there is no standards of
framework that it can be implemented by and if somebody who is prone to be convinced to charismatic
authority will be no matter if the idea is probable or pragmatic or logical or not.
So this is why I find charismatic authority interesting and specifically its role in
propagation of hate. I think there is a strong element in here that needs to be developed
further. And the other part of my answer to your question is of course personal and it comes
back to me doing what I do and why I do it. In my research I focus on hate against immigrant
communities and this can be interpreted in many ways, taken from racism, to bureaucracy,
to different structural systems of the hate that is present against immigrant communities.
And with immigrant communities I mean immigrants in Europe, immigrants in part of the region
where I come from and currently worldwide. I was born as an immigrant and therefore these
experiences of hate in the form of exclusion was rather normalized state of being for me as a
child as a grown up person and even now here in Ireland. So what makes this work? What makes
us still rely on these forms of hate and exclusion and still carry on and how do we not question that.
And I think there’s a matter of influence that happens in here. So this is why I ended up
researching this authority because it also has this personal dimension of rather exploration
from my side. So briefly that would be my answer for this.
There’s so much to dive in here in the academic theoretical side of things.
But before going there I want to ask because I’ve been really fascinated by Afghanistan in particular
and I think in part because I’m here in Colorado and some of the landscapes is actually very
similar although obviously much of the culture is probably quite different in some respects.
I want to ask you what’s it like that relationship with Afghanistan which has a rugged mountainous
landscape compared to a place like Ireland where you are that is softer and greener and often
raiding you know it’s very different climates and geographies. I was just wondering if you
could share a little with us just from your personal perspective and experience the ways maybe
that you relate to those two different places. Yes there is a couple of things that comes to my mind.
I absolutely agree that Colorado is in fact like Afghanistan the landscape. There’s elements
of weather that is quite similar and I think I strongly felt that when I was in Colorado and from
your question you know what comes to me is the perception of home. What does that actually mean
you know you know moving between spaces from landscape to internal feelings, from immigration
to displacement to all these different experiences. One of the things that I have realized is that
home is a space within it is quite internal and to have a kind of obsession over wanting to be
home or wanting to have a particular setup that signifies home. I believe it’s not a quite
healthy perspective to go about it and I want to take myself as an example.
If I am in Ireland and I still think about Afghanistan which I do in so many ways but I have
decided that this place of home is something that I keep within myself. It could be a smell. It
could be the smell of the bread. It could be like the breeze of the spring, the smell of the flower
and those things are the sentiment of life are mostly what I resonate with as home and this notion
has made me quite flexible and at ease to move between spaces and this is how I am in Ireland as well
as an Afghan as somebody who has lost home and country over and over being 1990s
kids. It’s the second time that I have lost my home and my country and from 1996 where the
Taliban took over Afghanistan all the way to three years ago 2021 the generation that worked on
different areas, different improvements within Afghanistan and country was and is my generation.
So things that we have lost now is a loss for people like me whose teenagehood, whose
bachelor’s degree time, master’s degree time, higher education time was spent really working
on institutional building and building that a strong network of young generation leadership
and leaders and to lose that is not something that is easy to live with.
So being here in Ireland I’m grateful for many things while carrying this sense of home within
myself but also knowing that whatever I do, even my work, even my conversation with you today
remains as a form of resistance to for a better world, for a better living that is you know
not separate and remains interconnected. It’s really really beautiful and for me lands as wisdom,
the ways speak about home being within and it reminds me of hearing from I think many luminaries
a sense that the entire world is our home and we all share it and to combine that with this
experience of home within I think is very powerful and as maybe a segue into the deep academic
research and theoretical work you’re doing around this topic of charismatic leadership and
the way it can mobilize hatred, racism, xenophobia and exclusion. I’m struck that often times
that kind of charismatic leadership links with a sense of geographic territory right whether it
was Hitler talking about the the gluten burden, the blood and soil of the German identity or
in many countries right now today this major concern around border security right is taking
on all kinds of dimensions and affecting different people in all kinds of ways. I’m wondering
in your work looking at how charismatic leadership can ultimately lead to terrible
violence and tragedy do you do you see a very strong link to a sense of geographic
territoriality or is that more of an occasional or coincidental link?
Yes I think all of these factors are quite contributing to how charismatic authority works
and it’s more almost like tactic that is being used and this tactic you know like doesn’t
have to be somebody like Hitler for us to realize that okay you know he was charismatic and
he was able to convince such a strong number of crowds to follow him and this tactics can happen
from a low skill to a large skill it can happen between two people to you know thousands and you
know within crowds and and and and so forth. The one determining factor that mixed charisma works
is that an interaction needs to happen there needs to be two people interacting in the leadership world
it is known as the follower and the leader because for example somebody can be charismatic
and if they do not interact with other people the charisma might never be discovered so so this
is why this element of interaction can be you know is the very first and foremost important thing
in in in manifestation of charismatic authority. Now returning back to your question and with
geography and and race and and these elements are contributing to this authority manifestation
absolutely yes but they function as a way to rationalize a certain arguments to rationalize
the argument of the person who uses their charisma. This is why you know whether the initial point
is logical or not does not matter or rational or irrational does not matter but they use these
geographical arguments to back their arguments up. For example you know we take the Taliban you know
the Taliban their their fight is based on a charismatic authority because it’s a it’s a matter of
influence for for people to be part of their group to be part of their movement and this is
backed by religion it’s backed by politics which has its own a regional political situation
and and so forth we can dive deeper into this if if we wanted but to give an European example let’s
say let’s say for instance urban you know he’s one of the most far-right and considerably
charismaticly counted charismatic in in central Europe and he is known to be one of the people
who who is far-right who is pro-Christian and anti-immigrant and there has been many
analysis of his speeches as well in relation to different tactics he uses so one of the one of the
ways he goes on about it is to use the religion of Christianity as a starting point that yes we are
Europe your Christian and you are threatened by the emigrants and and to put forward this very
general statement your in the middle and open to interpretation is the core of this problem first
of all for what is European European consists of many many diverse amounts of diverse background
of people coming together Christianity itself has diversity but to generalize these terms
and and instrumentalize it within politics this in itself is a tactic of charisma you curate a
sense of enemy you say this is your enemy and this is what you should do and you know within the
framework of emotions of charisma this is a process that is known as evoking you know evoking
a sense of emotion and and what better than religion to to evoke a sense of emotion something that
is very personal but also very public and and can be practicing in in both ways and and and this
evoking you know is is one of the one ways of going on about it and after a sense of enemy is
is constructed then the second stage would be in accordance to the emotions of charisma is
revoking you know a stage and revoking is when the change of hearts happen when people realize
for example if I am in Hungary and I see this surge of immigrants coming into the country
and as a person I’m like oh okay he’s actually right there are people showing up in the country
that look different from us have different religion have different culture so it must be these
people that this politician is talking about so this is where the change of hearts happen this is
where the central point of argument happens where people no longer see themselves as any end of
victim or a non-partisan people but decide to do something about it they they they gain a sense
of agency a sense of urgency is is also created and and this is what I like you know about analyzing
emotions of charisma and by the way this framework is by Patricia L from the 1980s based on an
article she has written and and she also describes these very clearly by analyzing different
speeches and she she says the last stage is reframing and when reframing happens and particular
leaders that use these tactics and and have their have this element of charisma reframe the
situation for people and and reframing is a plan to action you know like so if you believe me
what I say and if you strongly resonate with it here is a plan of action for me here is how you
can vote here is how you can have more Hungarian children here is how you can you know contribute
for this certain agenda that this particular politician or one for example has so I want to
circle back because we talked about you know tactics emotions sense of enemy political agenda all
of these but again you know what is charisma you know is it a quality is it something that people
can learn is it you know how does it work you know okay these tactics work and they’re in place
so to answer the answer to that is that it is both you know it is a quality that a person has
based on you know different relationships how they evolved in life and and it’s also a rhetoric
meaning that it can be learned it can be practiced to perfection it’s for urban it’s all about you
know having this you know wearing this suit that looks like somebody who who is a businessman who
gets things done who is you know goes to job and and at the same time appearing as a person who
goes and talks to the local people you know with the butcher with the shopkeeper with the
with the with the supermarket people with you know like slaughtering a pig with the local people
and and he does all of these activities and they’re curated very carefully they are
distributed among people through different channels of social media particularly for for a certain
purpose that that this is this is the guy to vote for this is the guy that can lead us further
and this is exactly how charisma works to to to create that that sense of first trips and
and being treated and and then rescuing somebody from that state state of being and and and you
know this is how it functions how and and you can see that okay it is it can be related it can
instrumentalize religion in this particular case that we talked about it’s it can instrumentalize
many other you know a way of being it can instrumentalize economy the region politics of region
the instrumentalizes wars like you know one can go ahead and analyze organs relationship with
Russia and Ukraine and you know all these different dimensions they all become a contributing factor
you know for these manifestation of like tactics and and so forth yeah so it’s so interesting so
and then Victor Orban I understand for currently his prime minister of Hungary is that his position
yeah you know okay I want to I want to back up one minute here because when when you and I began
speaking together several months ago and and we initially were talking about charismatic leadership
what came to mind for me were figures like Gandhi or Martin Luther King or even some of the
greatest luminaries that have led to entire global religious movements like Jesus or Muhammad or
Gautama Siddhartha the Buddha or Confucius and I think of in in in other like historical context
charismatic leaders like Winston Churchill or Ben Franklin how do you in in what’s ironic to
me in all of this is that that so many of the most charismatic who seem to be oriented around
love and kindness and wisdom and humanitarianism often the the religions the institutions the
movements created in the in the wake of those individual impulses then later on get twisted and turned
into very dark and sinister forms of charismatic leadership and immobilizing people so I guess what
I’m trying to ask is how the heck do we do you do we understand the difference between a charismatic
leadership that is working in service to humanity genuinely authentically and a charismatic
leadership that is that is contrary to that and and I ask again I think you know we can point
to some of the most stark maybe black and white examples but I’m wondering even in today’s politics
in many nations of the world we’ve got you know figures were some of my friends and family would
say oh that person I think is mobilizing hatred or xenophobia well another friend or family member
would say no that that’s my person that’s my guy that’s that did not charismatic leader speech
on my behalf right and so how the heck do we tease all of this apart yeah yes charismatic
authority can be used for both good and bad equally it can go to any direction to notice or to
realize it’s it’s potential for for propagation of hate is the nature of manipulation
it is we we always have to and and and I talk in the political and religious context because I
study in instrumentalization of religion in politics so when when one mixes pull pull politics and
and religion there is always an agenda behind this there is this whole setting is a field open
to manipulation and I think this is the first you know the ecotomy that we have to notice that
what is happening you know between this intersection the second thing that we can notice is the
element of history you know how our history has been used and and for what purposes is it used
to unify or is it used to bring more separation that brings hatred and and you know this this can
happen you know on on on different levels of course you know for example you know stories
behind religion even you know if if one you know is scrutinized Christianity or Islam both of them
there is many segments between among the two religion and many contradictions and sects
and different disciplines that disagree with each other but we need to pay attention that which
one of these are are proposed to me to evoke or to threaten threaten me to create a sense to create
a sense of enemy this is the first stage that’s you know we need to pay attention for example you
know this whole issue of you know immigrants and Christianity and Muslim immigrants and so
forth which is one example and then the the alternative what what has been you know offered to
us we need to also pay attention to that what kind of framing what kind of agenda is being put
forward and and who benefits from it and and and what goes on and I know that these things are not
you know quite you know easy and and for you know for our daily life to to always pay attention to
but to to question these constantly is is and I think we’re arriving at a state that we always
have to question these and if we do not we are simply contributing to to this build up of a
system that we no longer can you know control and I think questioning these and is is the way to go
on about it and and also I think personally the more I study you know religious radicalization
in this process that happens individually and within groups from Taliban to far right in Europe
and I’m sure equivalents also exist in the US the manipulation to religion is is a very
sensitive state of being because it deals with sacred values of people that are very individual
and are very personal and and when you threaten people’s sacred values whatever that is whether
whether it is religious or not you take away something from them you take away a sense of belonging
from them and and and and these sacred values needs to come within a framework of not only respect but
but out of politics completely and and this is the beginning of you know how we can
promote more unity where we have shared goals for a for a better coexistence and co-living and
life and and and and this element of belonging is is very important in here as well in relation to
sacred values because I belong first to myself to my own sacred values within Christianity within
Islam within you know my home whatever that is and and this belonging is how I function in in the
world you know this is how I find people like my own self who who have the same values and how I
become a member of a group you know and how I create a sense of you know being how how I develop
ethics morality all of that happens among group it happens among communities and and it is
this this this sensitive this fragile you know state that has been that is that has been manipulated
you know within our political system and and the the instrument that has pioneered this
manipulation is in fact religion and and and more so like in 2024 of course if we go back to
the history you know religion and politics has always been you know mixed together but this is
we live in a world where the world is becoming smaller and and connected more and more
we’re asking somebody where are you from the no longer makes sense because of the migration and
you have the climate migration coming our way if we do not pay attention to these things so
so so we need to take a moment and notice that okay there is a there is an alternative approach to
this and that is to separate the two the politics and the religion and and and not and make sure
everybody’s second values or respected you know in some ways and equally ideally yeah yeah excuse me
wow there’s so much there’s so much to unpack here I my my mind is going in two different directions
and you know I want to mention one thing that strikes me as very ironic you you just mentioned
climate refugees and I know that many of the world’s intelligence and military and policy
communities have been looking at potential forecasted scenarios over the next few decades and I’ve
heard and seen models that anticipate upwards of 700 million to one billion individual human
beings displaced by climate events and I think one of the great ironies at least thinking about
some of the the the political lines in this country is that I for folks who are really concerned
about something you know something like borders getting overwhelmed by refugees one of the
best things they probably could do is take a very proactive stance on climate change mitigation
ironically and and politically those two don’t necessarily tend to go together right now it seems
so that was just maybe a side thought that I’m having but I’m really I’m wondering I almost I’m
almost thinking that you know we could we could see a little handbook that that could help
each one of us better understand hey am I susceptible to charismatic authoritarianism because of
my sense is that when we are we’re not very aware of the fact that we likely are and I wonder
from as much of an objective standpoint as possible how do we outline or delineate or even even
guide somebody through a process of self examination and critical thinking and perhaps you know a lot
of times when folks have the privilege and opportunity of formal education higher education these
these kinds of skills are are incoocated as a matter of course in the curriculum but for for many
of us those are not the pathways we experience so I’m just I’m thinking out loud and I’m thinking
about an organization like the LCL foundation where you and I met Soraya and there are so many
amazing inspiring heart-centered leaders connected through that amazing network and in my my sense
is that I don’t I don’t get the sense that the leaders in that organization are moving in a
direction of charismatic authoritarianism right and so it’s a two-part question like as leaders how
do we know we’re not going down a pathway toward authoritarianism and as individual global
citizens of the world how do we know our degree of vulnerability or likelihood to fall prey to
that kind of leadership yeah I think I would like to return back to to the element of belonging and
and hopefully I’m not just reaching this this answer to this question too far and but I keep
on jumping between my analysis of Europe and also the Taliban because this is the two segments
that I’m focused on and and I want to mention that you know Taliban being recognized as a very
fundamental you know radical group that propagate hate quite actively is is nothing that is
you know hidden from the world you know and and they their degree of radicalization also happens
through a process of charismatic authority influence and and you know being convinced to do
jihad being convinced to fight for you know religion and and this obviously happens among groups
and individual and individual bases as well but but one might question that’s why a person
is being influenced by by this authority and the answer to that is the sense of belonging
because there is there is somebody the in the network of the Taliban that offers a sense of
belonging to a person that has nowhere to go that doesn’t belong in in Afghanistan that no longer
fits in the society and and has been you know through education of you know radicalization
and and certain in certain ways in certain based on certain curriculum has has ended up there
and then the very first you know process of influence happens by by imagining this this sense of
belonging okay I’ve got this and this is where I belong and and this happens in you know
on any scale you know it’s not very specific to Taliban it’s not specific to the concept of
Afghanistan um so how how do we you know imagine a better you know a better version of this
where there is no radicalization and hate in in between and one of the ways to go on about it
is to look at it as a as a community building that there is no longer no longer a leader no longer
a central figure to be to be followed but it like the community moves as a community in a
collective way and and I’m sure if if this alternative agenda would have been put in place
even for Taliban even in the context of Afghanistan it would have had a different outcome but the
problem is that they have this this imagination or rather interpretation of certain leader that
this is how one should be this is the way to go and and there’s many other political
and um
contributing factor into this which I’m not going to delve into um but to to coming back to Europe
coming back to a more you know non-individual um um sitting how how do we prevent authoritarian how
do we prevent you know um radicalism of any kind and all of that and I think for this people
need a shared goal you know and and I just want to uh mention and and I want to trigger the mind
of whoever is listening to to replace religion with climate change in politics perceptions change
You know, it’s true religion that people have, uh, politicians have constantly constructed
sense of enemies that it has been instrumentalized because our leaders, our political leaders
more so in Europe, like lack, uh, reflection on the collective goal, collective challenge
that we have. You know, if you, if you want, uh, you know, if you want to be, um, counsellor
or in the parliament or, or a politician, you have to convince people and for this you
need a plan and then for that plan to work, you need to come from a certain background,
you have to be wise, you have to be Christian, you have to be, or a person of color or coming
from this country. And the list goes on and, and, and one of the things that is missing
in here and, and, uh, one of the reasons that, you know, our politicians have ended up
in this way is because of the lack of a shared and, and collective goal, you know, um,
and when we have that, I think we, we have, uh, an approach and a proper agenda to follow
that. And, and, and nothing at this moment is better than, you know, taking, um, care
of climate change, um, taking care of like our planet, making our systems more inclusive
and, and better. And, and, and I think this should be our, our goal, um, and, and none
of this happened, uh, singularly. It all happens, um, collectively, it all happens, um,
as, um, people and communities coming together, um, uh, even, even if we have a one leader
that directs all of this, again, there will be a problem because it’s just one person,
um, so it has so much potential to, to end up, um, autocratic, um, and so forth. Um, so,
it’s, it’s more about shifting approach, shifting approach, changing our goals, changing our
agenda, um, and, and, and, and questioning these things and, and asking these difficult questions
continuously, um, that, you know, that, that how, how do we approach life? Because at the end
of the day, we all want to belong, you know, this, this person who is being radicalized,
in any religion, in any setting, at the end of the day, wanted to belong somewhere. Um, and,
as a society, as a society, we have not provided that space of belonging for this particular
person who have been radicalized. And, and we need to question that, that’s why have we ended up
in here? Um, and how can we, how can we turn that around? You know, how can we change that?
Um, so that would be, that would be my answer to your question.
Wow. So much to, to ponder and, uh, to consider. I want to remind our audience, this is the
YonEarth Community podcast on your host, Aaron at William Perry. And today, we are visiting
with Soraya Afzali, a scholar and, uh, expert on charismatic authoritarianism based in Dublin,
Ireland, where she’s currently, uh, working on her PhD at Trinity College. I want to be sure to
mention that we’ve got a few ways you can connect with Soraya and her work. We’ll include a link
to her research page in the show notes. And also, you can find Soraya on LinkedIn,
Soraya Dash, Afzali. Uh, I want to be sure to thank several of our, uh, partners and sponsors
who make our podcast series possible, as well as the broader community building and regeneration
of Renaissance work that we’re doing through our global network at the YonEarth Community,
and this includes, uh, Chelsea Green Publishing, uh, profitable purpose consulting,
Purim Organic Superfoods, Dr. Bronners, Patagonia, Earth Coast Productions,
Weylay Waters, and of course, want to give a huge shout out to all our friends at the
LCL Foundation. Happy that we also have a podcast with the co-founders of LCL,
our friends Olivier and Sochi, and, uh, want to be sure also to thank our many ambassadors
in our growing global ambassador network, um, and especially folks who have signed up for our
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we now have a Patreon page and you can go to YonEarth community on Patreon and find a variety
of gifts and offerings, uh, according to whatever level you’d like to, uh, support on a monthly
basis. Finally, just want to encourage you if you haven’t yet joined our ambassador network
and you would like to get of access to a variety of additional, uh, resources, including
our behind-the-scenes segments with our podcast guests. And after Soraya and I finish our main
interview, we will spend some additional time together in our behind-the-scenes segment that
is made available exclusively, uh, to our ambassador network. So a huge thanks to everybody,
making this series possible. And Soraya, you know, a huge thanks to you, uh, for the, for the work
that you’re doing. You know, I think from a certain perspective, we can look at history as a,
a, a, a beautiful and diverse capestry woven by threads of many people striving for the good and
striving for, uh, working in service to humanity and to the environments that we share together.
And of course, uh, throughout history, there are many, many examples of the, the violence,
the bloodshed, the suffering, the hatred that can get mobilized through, uh, human leadership.
Um, and, and your earlier comment reminds me of the, the scene, uh, where basically George
Washington was presented with the opportunity to be president for life, for the rest of his life.
And he refused. And, and, and maybe many folks look at that moment as a moment when something
very special was made possible in the imperfect, but, uh, directional, uh, striving of the
democratic system represented by the United States of America. And of course, he had that point
in time could have said, yeah, I’d love to be president for life. I, I’m, I’m wondering,
right? And, and, and I’m not necessarily expecting that you can answer this for us.
But what is it in your opinion that causes a leader like that to refuse, uh, the, the,
unbridled, virtually unlimited power? And apparently there’s a, there’s a, the saying that,
the king of England upon hearing this story and, and hearing, asking about George Washington’s
whereabouts and hearing, oh, he had gone back to his farm and was farming, uh, that, the king
responded by saying, well, that’s the most powerful man in the world. Um, what are your thoughts on that?
What, what, what’s going on there in that inner alchemy of, of the leader that can end up in a,
in an authoritarian, violent, uh, situation, or can, you know, put in motion forces for goodness
for humanity? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I need to look that up, uh, and include it in, in my research. So
thank you for, for sharing that. Um, and, uh, yeah, that, that, that is a good question. And, and,
the only thing that comes to my mind is, um, is greed and, and, and ego and, uh, elements of
narcissism, um, that, that, you know, that unfolds in here. And, um, there is a lot of, you know,
studies psychologically done in the field of, um, in the field about narcissism and, and leadership.
Um, and, and I think this is where it lies, you know, that, um, how, how our leaders, how
a potential leader can navigate that. And, and to, to, how far of an extent, are they willing to,
to go to feed this, um, they’re not, this narcissistic, you know, approach to, to life. Um,
and, and I think, you know, at the, at the end of the day, you know, this is something that, um,
is imposed on us by, by our system, you know, we, we are in, in a lot of ways, part of this whole
setting as well, you know, if we take, um, you know, our, um, our politics and, and our, uh, that
has ended up in the way that it has. And, um, a simple example of that would be capitalism. And,
and how, um, how greed, uh, has been used in, in capitalism. How, you know, the, the idea of
wanting more and more and never being enough, uh, is, is an instrument of capitalism. This is how,
how, how it’s said. Um, and, um, so it, it is obviously like a, a human, you know, um,
human element, you know, that, that exists within us that needs to be, um, unpacked and, and paid
attention to, um, to simply, you know, understand that what we already are in abundance of many
things that, you know, we, um, ask for, whether that is, you know, power or, or material or,
however it unfolds in our life. Um, and, and, and, and understanding that is, is something
um, that is not taught to us as kids, um, as children. And it’s only now, you know, in, in, in this,
you know, era that we are over questioning that, okay, um, you know, um, how capitalism system
works, uh, why have they ended up in this like, um, political system that constantly, no matter
how many laws and policies are, uh, put in front, it still marginalizes, it’s still backfires,
um, and, and it’s designed that way. It is, it is, it is a massive system designed for these
things to function the way they do. Um, and, and one, one point of, you know, stopping this is,
again, you know, asking these, um, difficult questions continuously and, um, and, and going for,
for asking the big question, but also small questions and encouraging those with our younger
generation, um, with our children, um, um, even more so. Um, so this is how, how we can have a
change of, you know, hearts. Um, so, yeah, and I think, um, the president of the United States,
when, um, when he said something like that, obviously has already understood this, uh,
this element of, you know, um, the joy of simple things, you know, of being happy, of, you know,
that agreed is something that can never be fulfilled or, or, or filled in, in some ways.
Absolutely. Yeah. It is reminding me of, uh, something John Rogers said, uh, when we recently had
John on the podcast, uh, he’s the author of the Renaissance campaign, of course, uh, central to
the, uh, work being done at the LCL foundation and he said, power changes people. And, uh,
I’m struck by that. I, I, I think there’s a deep inquiry there and I’m also struck by your
mentioning of children and narcissism. I, I have come to understand in the, in the mental health
arena that there’s more understanding that often when people end up exhibiting narcissistic
behavior that it is tied to and, and perhaps the result of, uh, childhood trauma or other trauma
that hasn’t been addressed and healed and mitigated and so forth. And, and so there’s a very
strong correlation there at least as I understand it. Um, and, and I wonder, you know,
ways in which we as a society, we as community leaders might think about helping to
mitigate that, that directionality, I think so many of us, of course, have experienced so many
types of, of traumas through our lives. And it seems, you know, to me, one of the ways we can help
heal our, our societal structures and systems is, is kind of back to your earliest point about
home within, right? Sort of starting at ground zero as it were starting at the, the, the interior
of our own cells. And I’m, I’m wondering if you’ve thought much about ways we might help to
do that at scale in society. Yeah. Yes. I’m, I’m very glad that the topic of trauma is coming up,
you know, our conversation. Um, and, and it is something that, um, exists, um, on a large scale,
unfortunately in our society. Um, and trauma is directly, directly links, um, to, to again,
a sense of, you know, belonging and identity as well. Um, you know, oftentimes there is a part of us
that, um, been, you know, traumatized from, from whatever it is. And, and oftentimes that, um,
stage is a loss of something. Um, for example, for me, you know, um, a loss of country, you know,
it’s, it’s, it has its own traumatic implication. And, and the Afghan generation in my generation
are also going to, to this, um, collective trauma, you know, that, uh, that we have to face.
Um, and, and it becomes, uh, it contributes to a sense of identity and, uh, and, and when you,
when we reflect, um, on the connection of trauma and identity, the, we come back to again,
to the sense of belonging, you know, and, um, and, and, and this is, this is why, um, belonging
should be encouraged more, belonging of, um, belonging in society, you know, contributing to,
um, including, contributing to inclusionary policies that do not backfire, um, within, you know,
our, our systems that, that we function with. Um, and, um, so this is, this is part, part of,
you know, like, um, you know, what I have to answer to this, um, and, and another thing about trauma
is, um, trauma is also an element that, you know, that I talked about, you know, this fragility of,
you know, being influenced by charismatic authority. A big part of that is trauma, because
an unresolved trauma gives more chances to be influenced by charismatic authority.
For good and for bad, you know, and if it is on the good side, it’s good, but the, the challenge
arises when, when this sense of being offered in a, in, in the bad spectrum of this, um, charismatic
belonging. Um, and again, you know, circling back, um, radicalization has also, um,
has a lot of connection and connotation that has to do with, uh, trauma. Um, the, the trauma of,
you know, um, racism, the trauma of any kind of hate, um, the trauma of being excluded, the
trauma of, um, being threatened to be yourself. You know, all of these, again, you know,
freed back to a state of fragility that is open to, to, to adapt to what is there that is offered
to us. Um, so, so we just, I think we need to create spaces that, um, encourage, um, a positive
sense of belonging, um, and, and this is easier than we think. Um, we pay attention to our collective
goals as, as cities, as communities, um, as, on how can we be better citizens, how can we
function better in our community from our home, to our street, to our, uh, little village,
to our city and then country. And forget about all these borders and, and then cliches and
stigmas that are attached to our old narratives, then I think that’s a very good place to start with.
Um, and there’s a lot of initiatives that already, um, does this, um, uh, here in Ireland, you
know, we just, um, um, working on, uh, garden communities that bring people together that become
spaces of creativity, but also conversation about, um, difficult things among people from one
that has ended up on one street. Um, and I think it is those spaces that, that people can start to,
um, feel the belonging, um, in a, in a community, in a community and diverse way, in a rich way.
Mm, mm, mm. I love it. I love it. I love it. I, I love hearing about the, the garden community
concept because there’s so much going on there with the microorganisms affecting our neuro biochemistry
when we’re interacting physically with the, the soil ecosystem and bringing people together to
have conversations in what is usually a pretty safe, relaxing environment, uh, how beautiful.
Yep. I want to, I want to mention, you know, we’ve had a few other, uh, really extraordinary, uh,
guests on the podcast talking about some of these topics and including, I want to mention Dr.
James Gordon, uh, who’s doing work to heal trauma in the entire, uh, nation and society of Ukraine,
in the midst of war. Um, the conversation we’ve had with him was really extraordinary.
Also with Dr. Anita Sanchez, especially regarding, uh, trauma as it relates to some of the
indigenous cultural experiences, um, and also women’s experiences in particular.
And of course, uh, Dr. Sanchez is on the board of Pachamama Alliance,
as is John Perkins. Uh, I want to mention John Perkins, who, uh, writes extensively about some of
the systems and structures in place in the global, uh, cultural and economic fabric that need, uh,
to transform, need to evolve. Um, I can’t help but mention our forthcoming book,
color, biggest deal that we’re putting together with a number of authors on this topic. And so, um,
stay tuned. We’ve got an essay from John Perkins in there looking at the difference between life
economy and death economy, which, Soraya, I want to ask you about in a moment, because it’s
something you’ve identified in your work. I want to also mention, uh, Dr. Jan Dell Allen Davis,
an extraordinary leader who, um, has been on the podcast twice, talking about her work as a
medical doctor and executive of a hospital. And also she’s on the board of the Federal Reserve.
Uh, and we did our second episode with her after the murder of George Floyd and, uh, Dr.
Jan Dell Allen Davis is African-American woman and has shared such a, uh, raw and, and vulnerable,
uh, part of herself in the days following that incredible, uh, tragedy. Um, so I wanted to mention
that as well. And finally, also the work of Dr. Robert Cloninger, and he’s looking as a, uh,
psychiatrist and a geneticist at some of the fundamental, uh, attributes making up each of us,
individually determining and, or indicating our likelihood to be concerned about all of humanity
or people outside of our sphere, people we don’t know, uh, versus those of us not so concerned,
more kind of tribalistic in our orientation. And I’m really curious. I want to follow up and ask
Dr. Cloninger if they’ve done any correlating or deeper, um, research looking at trauma,
as it might play out in, in the matrix that they’ve, uh, developed in their research. And he’s
one of the most cited scientists on the planet alive right now. Um, so, uh, really, uh, exciting that
we have the opportunity to weave some of these, uh, expertise and perspectives together. And
coming back to this life versus death orientation that, uh, John Perkins writes about in terms of
economy, uh, Sir, I’m, I’m really curious because you and I spoke a few weeks back about this
in the, in the rhetoric, right, of, uh, uh, some charismatic authoritarian leaders. And I was hoping you
could, uh, elucidate this for us. Yeah. Um, absolutely. Um, I think what comes to my mind,
in relation to, to charismatic authority and part of my research is, um, the concept of
necropolitics, um, that is developed by Mbembe. And, um, and, and necropolitics basically explains,
um, in, in a nutshell, that we live in a world that is almost like a death world. And, and to
clarify this further, um, you know, for those of, uh, listeners who are, uh, familiar with the gaming
world, um, at this world is, um, a place where it is not friendly to life. You can step on, um,
on, uh, on a plant and you might die or you can be eaten by anything. So that’s a death world.
And, and Mbembe comes forward and, and explains that, you know, how our world is, um, systematically
designed that our worth is connected to the value of our death in fact. For example, um,
a person in Europe might have a better quality of life when in certain cities, um, and, and
deserves, you know, uh, certain, uh, social benefits by the government, the government, depending
on what they end, um, and so many other contributing factor. And then they deserve a good life.
But for somebody who is on the other end of the country and lives a slightly, uh, rough life,
this person, you know, benefits from lower quality of life. And, and therefore their life is
not worth it as much as the person A. And this is how the politics of, um, the, the necropolitics
works. And, and this is mentioned by Mbembe as the politics of death. And when we take this,
this analysis further in, in, in relation to, um, refugees and immigrants, um, we can see this
quite explicitly, even more. Um, a refugee, um, is, uh, is scrutinized, um, from the beginning to
the end. Um, there is, um, door placed in refugee camps that, uh, uh, who’s, um, who’s, uh,
who’s movement is monitored as well as their nutrition, as well as their life, as well as
their clothing and, and anything about them, uh, is monitored. And therefore a refugee becomes
a subject to the, to the politics of death. And if this refugee, uh, receives the lowest quality
of life, it doesn’t matter because the refugee is the refugee. It’s, um, um, the, the value that has
been attached to the bodies of a refugee is the lowest in, you know, in a, in a country that is
receiving them. And again, this is how the politics of death, you know, works. But it even goes
further. It goes deeper within this structural system. Um, and I, and I want to give an example
of the direct provision here in, in Ireland where, um, there are refugees who have been in this,
complexes, um, for years. Some people have been there for 10 years. Some people gave, um,
birth to a child in these complexes. And all because of their refugee status, their asylum
seeking status, uh, their inability to get, uh, jobs, um, the, these barriers that has existed
and has prevented them to get out of the, uh, this refugee system here in Ireland. But even further
than that, these complexes have been privatized, meaning that there are companies that provide
food for these complexes. That’s, uh, there is a system of allowance that is very little and, um,
um, and, and anything, you know, from 30, uh, bureaus per week in this very expensive country is,
is the allowance that, uh, for the direct people living in direct provision. And, and the privatization
of this big system, uh, in itself builds an economy. It further stabilizes this system in place.
Um, it makes it a hard to move because now there is a revenue, there is a, there is a flow of money
that is backing this political system that is in, in place. Um, so this is, um, um, again,
comes back to the value that is attached to the bodies of, um, people who have been
other people who are immigrants who are refugees and so forth. And this is why, um, I think following
our conversation, um, I find this concept of, um, negro, negro politics, um, quite fascinating
because it also explains that, um, these, these, these certain, you know, values that are attached
to bodies, um, functions through elements of, um, race, um, it functions through elements of
religion, it functions through, like, uh, it almost creates a mega system, um, that, that nobody
no longer dares to talk about it. It just is, uh, just how it has been. Um, and, and, and, you know,
when it becomes privatized, when it has economic backing, then, um, you know, this vicious cycle of
racism and hate and, um, vicious cycle basically, you know, keep, keep on going, it continues.
Um, so yeah, and, and you know, like, I, I, I, I connect this in my research and in relation to
charismatic authority in a way that, you know, why do we need to be careful about this, this
particular type of authority? Why do we need to pay attention to how we are being manipulated,
how we are being offered a sense of belonging and so forth? Because this type of authority,
becomes political, you know, and, and political leadership creates these systems. They become
the point of decision making for these systems. Um, it definitely takes, you know, our, uh,
parliament members, our political leaders, uh, to, uh, to make the will of this, this kind of
politics to, to move, um, around. Um, and this is why, you know, individual leadership,
charismatic leadership, um, who do we, um, how we work and how we communicate, how do we, um,
understand our sense of agency and what do we do with it, um, becomes significant in the, in this
process, in, uh, in this whole, uh, this whole structured systemic structure that we’re part of.
Absolutely. Your mention of the, the privatization of refugee camps makes me think about the
privatization of prisons, uh, here in the United States. This has been, uh, in an extraordinarily
widespread and unjust, uh, structural system, obviously affecting, uh, black men, men of color to
a much higher degree than, than virtually the rest of society. And in many of these instances,
these folks are given opportunities are required to work, uh, for companies that are making profits,
but are getting paid maybe 25 cents an hour, maybe a dollar an hour. It’s, it’s virtually a slave
labor system. And when we think and look at, you know, something like the Nazi regime, of course,
those folks mobilize that with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of, uh, imprisoned people
forced to work. And, and what’s not talked about quite as much around the, the Holocaust in the
Second World War is that there was basically a Nazi aristocracy that profited immensely from that
system. And I think part of the issue around all of this, Soraya has to do with transparency and
shining light on, uh, the places in our structures and systems where, uh, if you’ve got a misaligned
profit motive, it, it seems to me it’s, it’s very hard to get the people benefiting from those,
injustices to voluntarily give that up. That doesn’t seem to be a pattern that happens too
terribly often. And so I think, uh, for us as a whole, the, the transparency and the education is,
is really critical so that we have our eyes open, uh, as to what’s really going on in these
instances. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Um, I think, you know, um, overall, you know, my, my goal with,
with this type of research, you know, I, I know I kind of have, have, have touched upon in different,
you know, segments of, um, areas, you know, from, like, you know, starting from Taliban to like
far right in Europe on, you know, these big systems that we have, um, my, my goal is to shed light
on, on this process, to shed light that, okay, um, how, how, how did we have, like, end up in here?
And, and to be honest, as, um, as a, as a PhD candidate, students, you know, it, it has not been
easy. It’s a, it’s a constant struggle, but, um, just because, only because all of these things
are super connected, you know, um, it, there is always, for example, this privatization, as you
mentioned, that, you know, backs certain political agenda, um, and, and, you know, it makes it move
forward. Um, and, and I hope to, you know, shed light on, on these processes, um, and then again,
coming back to education, which is, um, the group that I worked with, let’s see, El Foundation as
well, um, there is a lot that can be done through our educational system. Um, and, and that, um,
um, it starts with, you know, uh, how, how are we training, you know, people to be part of these
big systems that we just talked about, whether there is prison or, or corporation or, um, or politics,
how are we training people, you know, to fit into these, um, these very fixed, um, uh, standards
of, uh, profession, and, and why is that, you know, who, who are we, you know, and I think this question
of, um, rather, um, letting people to be, um, to, to follow this, this sense of purpose within
themselves and, and approach that from an external perspective is the job of the education.
Um, and, and to constantly, um, again, question these, uh, systems, these big systems that
have even, you know, curated our educational system, um, to, uh, to change the,
change perceptions and, and, and carry on. And I want to, like, again, uh, from, from politics to
economy to, to education. Um, the change of perceptions happen, you know, it’s, it’s not a massive
process, you know, it’s not like, oh my god, this is a big system, I cannot do anything about it
and so forth. No, we can, actually, um, and this is, uh, as simple as, you know, somebody, um,
not being nominated for the parliamentary system and having an agenda for different, uh, purposes
that, you know, that encourages, um, these systems to go further and versus somebody who comes
forward and, and propose a type of leadership that is, uh, echo, um, uh, leadership, that is, uh,
based on, um, you know, I echo, echo mindset, you know, um, that helps, you know, some of the
challenges of, for example, climate change and so on to, to be resolved. I think it’s, it’s,
it’s those decisions that happens on macro level that, you know, that, that is quite impactful.
And the same thing goes on to our educational system, that why do we not, at the end of the day,
you know, um, put some of our global challenges that is not even specific to one country as the
center of our educational system and approach our educational system from there. Um, and, and if
any institution, uh, you know, prevents this, um, says a lot about them than, than, than,
than the, than the other way around. Um, and I think it’s, these change of perspective that,
you know, we need to focus on and, and encourage people to, to have. And again, these are not like
massive, impossible changes. They’re quite practical, you know, um, so yeah.
Love it. Absolutely. Love it, Soraya. And it reminds me of us saying, I forget, uh, who, who it’s
attributed to about, uh, go something like, if you want to make, um, small changes, uh, change
your habits, if you want to make big changes, change your perceptions. Um, there’s something in
here that you’re, you’re speaking to that I think is really exciting and empowering. And I want
to thank you as we wrap up. And of course, you and I will still have a few more minutes together
in our behind the scenes segment for our ambassador network. Just want to remind our audience if you
haven’t yet joined the ambassador network and would like to, you are invited, uh, you can go to
yonearth.org and click on the, become an ambassador page to get, uh, that process and your journey
started all kinds of ways to connect, to build community, to shed light, to cultivate a sense of
belonging with a whole bunch of us, uh, around the world doing, uh, good work. And, uh, yeah, before we
transition to that, Soraya, I just want to thank you for the amazing work and research that you’re
doing and for, uh, speaking, uh, about it in, in such a cogent and compelling way. And, and thank you
for the ways you are, uh, shedding light in our world, uh, that is so needed. Um, and, and before we
wrap up our, uh, podcast interview discussion here, I want to just ask you, um, one last question, uh,
if you could wave your magic wand and describe or prescribe a way in which we humanity could
transform, uh, our world together over the next several years. What would you have us do? What would
you ask us to do? What would you envision us doing? Yeah, that’s a very interesting question. Um, thank
you, Aaron. Um, thank you for having me today and it’s been a privilege speaking to you today. Um,
and I want to finish with, um, one point and that is to, to always focus on,
what we share, um, what is mutual between us, um, rather than, um, noticing differences,
um, and, and contributing to more separation. Um, I think what we share with each other, each one
of us, um, is so exciting. It, it, it’s, it’s so, it’s so rich and it has so much potential, um,
to be explored and, and I want to finish with that. That is so beautiful. I love it.
Thank you so much, Sarah. It’s been a real joy. Thank you to you.
Yeah.
The YonEarth Community Stewardship and Sustainability podcast series is hosted by Aaron
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